Where does the US's obsession with the free market come from?

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Where does the US's obsession with the free market come from?; just curious
Topic Started: Mar 5 2010, 09:18 PM (651 Views)
Akiha	Mar 5 2010, 09:18 PM Post #1
urusai! urusai! urusai! baka! baka! baka! Posts: 4,283 Group: Members Member #78 Joined: July 20, 2006	Why does the word socialism in the US cause frothing at the mouth? Not coming from the US I don't understand this, I can see socialism and capitalism both have positive points as well as negative ones, but it seems crazy to me that when Obama talked of changing the healthcare system there were all these people protesting saying "Government hands off my health" and such. isn't this a little extreme? Also notice they can't even spell 'too' properly I live in the UK with what American's would probably call a "socialist" universal healthcare system, or what Sarah Palin would call 'Death Panels': The NHS (national Health Service) and I think its great but we are not a socialist country. Rather unfairly the NHS has been demonised by the Republicans in their anti-Obama quest. I am please to say that despite 27 years of this system, that I am in fact not dead. So, without getting too political, why is the culture of the United States of America so fixated on capitalism? Did all the cold war anti-communism propoganda work too well?



Bilzey	Mar 5 2010, 10:20 PM Post #2
Active Member Posts: 368 Group: London Mayor Member #4,078 Joined: November 13, 2009 City London Company Name Bilzey's Burgers Political Party Europa	Akiha Mar 5 2010, 09:18 PM I am please to say that despite 27 years of this system, that I am in fact not dead. Despite 18 years of the system, I too am no- Bilzey drops dead



Sibre2001	Mar 5 2010, 10:50 PM Post #3
Came up with the idea for coming up with ideas Posts: 916 Group: Members Member #4,414 Joined: January 11, 2010 City Tokyo Company Name Umbrella Defibrillator Corp Political Party La Politica Della Famiglia	I think a lot of the big fear of socialism comes from the Red Scare back in the day. To the US socialism is the first step to communism and communism is the first step to a dictator taking over your country and coming to kill your wife and kids. For example: Quote: How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. -Ronald Reagan imo the Americans are not saddled directly to capitalism but rather saddled to our old ways of doing business (which happens to be capitalism ). Even if the most perfect form of government was designed we wouldn't take it (or it would be a extremely hard sell) because that isn't what our "forefathers would want". imo the two party system we have is a very good way to keep the population doing exactly what our leaders want while still making us feel in control. Pretty much one of the oldest tricks in the book is to get your subjects rallying against each other rather then rallying against the system that is truly the one causing them the harm. I think a Nazi said it best: Quote: But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country. -Hermann G�ring (Hitler's designated successor, and commander of the Luftwaffe) Again. This is all just my opinion. Feel free to ignore me



juslen	Mar 6 2010, 12:33 AM Post #4
Newbie Posts: 7 Group: Members Member #4,534 Joined: March 5, 2010	You guys have no clue. As an American I enjoy being.. well.. an American. What do I mean? Well I enjoy my freedom. I don't have to make a lot of money to afford health care, to place to live, money in my pocket, and the ability to spend my money how I like. "Socialist" countries like the UK, you couldn't pay me to live there. They tax your TV, they take upwards of 50% of everything you earn and they tell you that its for the greater good. You get "free" health care, "free" education and peace of mind. Well I'm sorry but Capitalism is what allows for people to fully utilize their education and their experience not Socialism. The government can only do a few select things right. Mainly on the local levels. The United States has over 300 million people. You think you can compare us to Denmark, Sweden, France? Hell.. our most bankrupt state.. California is larger than most European countries. How is that "Socialism" working out for them? They have some of the highest taxes in the entire United States. They have the strictest environment laws and people are flooding out as the unemployment rate rises above 13%. Meanwhile the Cowboy State.. Texas.. has unemployment half that. Why? They have lower taxes and companies are moving there to open up plants and factories because they can actually make a profit without red tape 10k miles long. This is the United States.. 50 states.. hundreds of millions of people. We are a very diverse country, you cannot compare us to European countries. Yet the rest of the world seems to think we shouldn't make a big deal every time our politicians keep pointing overseas to tell us how great they have it compared to us. So as an American.. I say.. ***** YOU! As I have stated before.. my apartment is bigger than most Europeans homes. I don't make a lot of money, but I enjoy the money I do make. Even still I plug 15% of my income into Federal Income taxes. I put another 5% into sales taxes for my state. Then I pay 8% for Social Security and Medicare. Property taxes are around 5% which is reflected in my rent. Not only that but my employers pay another 8% to match my SS and Medicare taxes. That comes out of my paycheck as lower wages. Then you have taxes on my electricity and heating bills because of government regulations. Then I have to pay taxes on my gas. So even after all of this "Capitalism" I pay close to 40% in taxes. Then because of government regulations and taxes of businesses the price of the things I buy also go up on top of the 5% sales tax not to mention the increases prices of fuel. Then you have sin taxes.. for alcohol.. and now they are proposing taxes on junk food. And I don't smoke but the taxes of cigarettes are insane. They are also proposing carbon taxes which would double the price of gasoline from an average of 3 dollars a gallon to 6 dollars a gallon or more. Meanwhile.. I may never see Social Security (retirement benefits) when I get older because the system is bankrupt. And Medicare (medical for seniors) that is bankrupt as well. So all these things add up to piss me off. The crappy education I got in the public (government) schools was horrendous. Overpaid union teachers funded by tax dollars. So any of you Europeans out there who say "oh yeah our education is better!" just remember that our education is funded by tax dollars. And our health care system may not be government run or a single payer system but many people get government assistance for their health care and that has caused the price of health care for those who actually purchase their own insurance to sky rocket. We got rid of our welfare system in the United States. And you know what they replaced it with? The earned income tax credit. That means if you have kids and you don't make enough money, as long as you have a job, whether its making 7 bucks an hour or not you get a tax rebate at the end of the year. So you pay in 2k dollars. You know how much you get back? Upwards of 3500 per child. Instead of a welfare check you get a check at the end of the year for more than you paid in. Meanwhile me.. having payed in all those taxes.. and making less than 30k a year.. I have to pay in 200-300 bucks. So I just payed for someone else kids despite also paying for their kids education through my property taxes/rent. There are people gaming the system collecting SS checks because they have "headaches" people getting liver transplants for nothing and going right back tot he bars to drink away their government money. We have food stamps meant for food.. people blow their food stamps on stuff they don't need. People get 500-600 dollars a month for food having 2 kids. They also get free health care.. rent assistance.. heat assistance.. you name it. Government workers make more than private sector workers. Politicians get fat pension plans and Unions get protected by the politicians. Its just a system of corruption all in the name of equality. So you wonder why we don't like socialism. Its because whatever you name it, it means more government. And our 300 million citizens and our 50 separate states are not going to function the same as some of these other European countries with 10-20% of our population. We have our own problems.. we don't need to adopt more from somewhere else. <3 Bilzey you asked for it.



Comrade Xoin Iljitsj Lenin	Mar 6 2010, 06:54 AM Post #5
Any cook should be able to run the country. Posts: 1,045 Group: Banned - Appeal Denied Member #4,085 Joined: November 13, 2009 City Tokyo Company Name 24 / 7 Political Party The Internationale	Always criticize them system, even if you do like it. And a democracy is what I call a joke.



Tula Jit	Mar 6 2010, 07:21 AM Post #6
War Monkey Monger Posts: 833 Group: Members Member #4,104 Joined: November 14, 2009	juslen Mar 6 2010, 12:33 AM You guys have no clue. As an American I enjoy being.. well.. an American. What do I mean? Well I enjoy my freedom. I don't have to make a lot of money to afford health care, to place to live, money in my pocket, and the ability to spend my money how I like. "Socialist" countries like the UK, you couldn't pay me to live there. They tax your TV, they take upwards of 50% of everything you earn and they tell you that its for the greater good. You get "free" health care, "free" education and peace of mind. Well I'm sorry but Capitalism is what allows for people to fully utilize their education and their experience not Socialism. The government can only do a few select things right. Mainly on the local levels. The United States has over 300 million people. You think you can compare us to Denmark, Sweden, France? Hell.. our most bankrupt state.. California is larger than most European countries. How is that "Socialism" working out for them? They have some of the highest taxes in the entire United States. They have the strictest environment laws and people are flooding out as the unemployment rate rises above 13%. Meanwhile the Cowboy State.. Texas.. has unemployment half that. Why? They have lower taxes and companies are moving there to open up plants and factories because they can actually make a profit without red tape 10k miles long. This is the United States.. 50 states.. hundreds of millions of people. We are a very diverse country, you cannot compare us to European countries. Yet the rest of the world seems to think we shouldn't make a big deal every time our politicians keep pointing overseas to tell us how great they have it compared to us. So as an American.. I say.. *** YOU! As I have stated before.. my apartment is bigger than most Europeans homes. I don't make a lot of money, but I enjoy the money I do make. Even still I plug 15% of my income into Federal Income taxes. I put another 5% into sales taxes for my state. Then I pay 8% for Social Security and Medicare. Property taxes are around 5% which is reflected in my rent. Not only that but my employers pay another 8% to match my SS and Medicare taxes. That comes out of my paycheck as lower wages. Then you have taxes on my electricity and heating bills because of government regulations. Then I have to pay taxes on my gas. So even after all of this "Capitalism" I pay close to 40% in taxes. Then because of government regulations and taxes of businesses the price of the things I buy also go up on top of the 5% sales tax not to mention the increases prices of fuel. Then you have sin taxes.. for alcohol.. and now they are proposing taxes on junk food. And I don't smoke but the taxes of cigarettes are insane. They are also proposing carbon taxes which would double the price of gasoline from an average of 3 dollars a gallon to 6 dollars a gallon or more. Meanwhile.. I may never see Social Security (retirement benefits) when I get older because the system is bankrupt. And Medicare (medical for seniors) that is bankrupt as well. So all these things add up to piss me off. The crappy education I got in the public (government) schools was horrendous. Overpaid union teachers funded by tax dollars. So any of you Europeans out there who say "oh yeah our education is better!" just remember that our education is funded by tax dollars. And our health care system may not be government run or a single payer system but many people get government assistance for their health care and that has caused the price of health care for those who actually purchase their own insurance to sky rocket. We got rid of our welfare system in the United States. And you know what they replaced it with? The earned income tax credit. That means if you have kids and you don't make enough money, as long as you have a job, whether its making 7 bucks an hour or not you get a tax rebate at the end of the year. So you pay in 2k dollars. You know how much you get back? Upwards of 3500 per child. Instead of a welfare check you get a check at the end of the year for more than you paid in. Meanwhile me.. having payed in all those taxes.. and making less than 30k a year.. I have to pay in 200-300 bucks. So I just payed for someone else kids despite also paying for their kids education through my property taxes/rent. There are people gaming the system collecting SS checks because they have "headaches" people getting liver transplants for nothing and going right back tot he bars to drink away their government money. We have food stamps meant for food.. people blow their food stamps on stuff they don't need. People get 500-600 dollars a month for food having 2 kids. They also get free health care.. rent assistance.. heat assistance.. you name it. Government workers make more than private sector workers. Politicians get fat pension plans and Unions get protected by the politicians. Its just a system of corruption all in the name of equality. So you wonder why we don't like socialism. Its because whatever you name it, it means more government. And our 300 million citizens and our 50 separate states are not going to function the same as some of these other European countries with 10-20% of our population. We have our own problems.. we don't need to adopt more from somewhere else. <3 Bilzey you asked for it. America will be happy to know that their right wing propaganda machine still works on the uneducated. Half of what you spewed out was so malcontorted from truth and reason that printed up what you wrote down for the sole purpose of showing this to my coworkers and laughing at you. And for the record Wyoming is the Cowboy State. Texas is the Lone Star State. Again thanks for the laughs. Edited by Tula Jit**, Mar 6 2010, 07:24 AM.



Akiha	Mar 6 2010, 07:39 AM Post #7
urusai! urusai! urusai! baka! baka! baka! Posts: 4,283 Group: Members Member #78 Joined: July 20, 2006	juslen Mar 6 2010, 12:33 AM You guys have no clue. ... So as an American.. I say.. ***** YOU! ... We have our own problems.. we don't need to adopt more from somewhere else. <3 Bilzey you asked for it. This is the sort of 100% hostile view that I'm not understanding. And did you have to swear at us? (reported) I was hoping that this would be a moderate discussion, not turn into a flame war. I am able to appreciate that socialism and captalism both have it's good and bad points. It's working well enough for China whose capitalist/socialist hybrid is set to overtake the USA as the world superpower within decades. True, they are politically oppressed, but what system is completely free? imho to label something immediately as the source of all evil is a little too simplistic. I understand if you don't want to pay for somebody elses live transplant. However not all people will immediately drink their new liver to death though, and if I ever need one, I'll be relieved I don't have to sell all my worldly possesions in order to pay for it. I was thinking that maybe the US fixation with free market ideals came from its history, culture, and self proclaimed identity, the part of the "land of the free". The place where somebody with nothing can "make it rich" and its the "American dream" for everyone to have equal opportunity to get rich. In reality this is not true, but the phrase "If you work hard in America you will be rewarded and thus we all have equal opportunity" still holds weight around the world. I know that the American Revolution was in a sense fought over what the colonists thought was excessive government intervention in their affairs. Britian's navigation acts might have been another early factor, and was probably the first interference of the open market in the colonies. Following the rapid expansion of the 19th century under a free enterprise system, American's had very little reason for socialist style social programs until the Great Depression. However, I'm theorising that any respect for Socialist ideas were burried during the cold war.



Yop288	Mar 6 2010, 08:21 AM Post #8
Newbie Posts: 12 Group: Members Member #4,530 Joined: March 4, 2010	I have two things, 1. Those words look photo shop 2. The U.S. free health care is most likely not written the same as the British.



TCTriangle	Mar 6 2010, 08:27 AM Post #9
Long-Time User Posts: 505 Group: Members Member #4,228 Joined: November 23, 2009	Akiha, one word: COMMUNISM. Most people here in the States are VERY VERY ignorant about matters and I'd say about half or maybe even more of the people confuse socialism and communism as the same thing, which cannot be further from the truth. I admit that in the past I was also confused about the two because, after all, pretty much every communist regime arises out of calls for socialism. So that's that. Another thing is that some people are VERY VERY capitalist (like Juslen over there). So naturally these people would be totally against socialism. Thing is that some people don't realize the two can actually coexist. Edited by TCTriangle, Mar 6 2010, 08:29 AM.



Sibre2001	Mar 6 2010, 08:29 AM Post #10
Came up with the idea for coming up with ideas Posts: 916 Group: Members Member #4,414 Joined: January 11, 2010 City Tokyo Company Name Umbrella Defibrillator Corp Political Party La Politica Della Famiglia	Tula Jit Mar 6 2010, 07:21 AM America will be happy to know that their right wing propaganda machine still works on the uneducated. Half of what you spewed out was so malcontorted from truth and reason that printed up what you wrote down for the sole purpose of showing this to my coworkers and laughing at you. And for the record Wyoming is the Cowboy State. Texas is the Lone Star State. Again thanks for the laughs. lmao. Exactly Tula. People please do not mark a Texan as the average American. Hell, they want to succeed anyways and I will donate money to make it happen. As for the right wing propaganda machine. It is only right wing for now. Hatred sells and it is making Foxnews and the like money hand over fist to demonize everything they can. Once it is out of fashion the left wing propaganda machine will start up and rage against the new devils. Capitalism at work for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Akre @Akiha: Me and you are pretty much agreed. Every system is screwed up but most people believe the system that they are in are top notch. I have never lived outside of the US (for longer then 8 months at a time) so I cannot make a solid opinion on another form of government. But I do know that true change (not the change politicians spout every 4 years) is pretty scary for your average person. And the socialist countries that are doing just fine don't make the news. Just the ones ready to kill someone



Keochti	Mar 6 2010, 08:34 AM Post #11
no matching citizen Posts: 4,162 Group: Banned Member #1,588 Joined: October 1, 2006 City London Company Name Villain's Bag O'Fun Political Party Villains	Oh Canada we stand on guard, for theeeeeeeeeee! Things like this make me happy to be Canadian. Akiha you should be ashamed! Discussing politics with Americans is like discussing religion with a cultist... both I've learned not to do over time. Though I am as confused as you were in your original post as to why no one would want free Universal Health Care. We have it here and things work out great... but I guess with Texas being so close to Mexico, they can get surgeries for cheap as well.



Akiha	Mar 6 2010, 08:51 AM Post #12
urusai! urusai! urusai! baka! baka! baka! Posts: 4,283 Group: Members Member #78 Joined: July 20, 2006	Keochti Mar 6 2010, 08:34 AM Oh Canada we stand on guard, for theeeeeeeeeee! Things like this make me happy to be Canadian. Akiha you should be ashamed! Discussing politics with Americans is like discussing religion with a cultist... both I've learned not to do over time. Well...to be fair, Most Americans who have responded have been moderate and reasonable in this topic. There's only been 1 person totally convinced about the complete wrongness of socialism so far. Edited by Akiha, Mar 6 2010, 08:58 AM.



Keochti	Mar 6 2010, 08:59 AM Post #13
no matching citizen Posts: 4,162 Group: Banned Member #1,588 Joined: October 1, 2006 City London Company Name Villain's Bag O'Fun Political Party Villains	Yeah... but it's fun to stereotype...eh?



icehawk	Mar 6 2010, 10:47 AM Post #14
Why should i worry? Posts: 569 Group: Banned Member #4,295 Joined: December 5, 2009 City New York	Well akiha to be fair the US is not obsessed with the free market at all. China has more of a free market then America. That might sound wired but its true we have business regulations and protocol falling out our asses as well as things like welfare. The biggest problem i have with his health care is you dont get a choice. Americans love their freedom of choice and with his system you either buy it or get a fee...oh yea did i mention HIS IS NOT FREE. Look into it its not a good idea at all. I agree that healthcare needs a change, however it dosent need to be that radical. Right now if i live in michigan i must have healtcare from michigan. I cant have it from any other states this brings a lack of competition and in some cases a monopoly were health care companies can charge and do whatever they want. However opening it so healthcare can be bought breeds competition and better service. I dont believe that universal healthcare will ever work in America. I think that there are so many illegal immigrants that if healthcare was free they would completely drain the system. As it is now it is free but not surgery or expensive treatments and it may sound cruel but if your here illegally we shouldnt be obligated to treat you.



Melutar	Mar 6 2010, 10:56 AM Post #15
Inmate 809-815-LACH1 Posts: 1,292 Group: Members Member #4,072 Joined: November 11, 2009 City Dallas Company Name Angelis Industries - CEO Political Party Inmates of America	I stopped here: Quote: Hell.. our most bankrupt state.. California is larger than most European countries. How is that "Socialism" working out for them? Well, none of those countries are bankupt now are they? Oh, and I'm American and a bit of a socialist if I do say so myself.


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